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Nassau Pistol Handbook vs. PL400.00(6)

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    #16
    Your confusion lies in the fact that, until Suffolk started the whole "Sportsman" bullshit, all licenses had the term "Carry" printed within the body of the permit. Then the local assbags would add the restrictions as they see fit. When the permits were paper, it would be done with a red rubber stamp. As already stated, all permits (outside of nyc)are in fact NY State Carry permits, Around here they are issued by the county police, in other area's it can be the local judge or Sheriff etc etc. Suffolk started the issuance of the sportsman permit crap, after they went plastic, by removing the Carry title from the face of the permit, thus eliminating having to physically ad restrictions at the counter. Later on down the road, Suffolk got Nassau to follow along to "help eliminate confusion" between the two adjoining counties, and Nassau then followed suit. No wording in the state law has changed concerning the issuance of STATE pistol licenses(afain), it's just local BS. The transformation to plastic without the word "carry" on it also eliminated the need for the person at the counter to make sure your restrictions were stamped on the back before you walked out. Don't think for a moment, that there weren't a number of "accidental" oversights, where that stamp was forgotten. It did happen.

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      #17
      Originally posted by bigbore44 View Post
      Your confusion lies in the fact that, until Suffolk started the whole "Sportsman" bullshit, all licenses had the term "Carry" printed within the body of the permit. Then the local assbags would add the restrictions as they see fit. When the permits were paper, it would be done with a red rubber stamp. As already stated, all permits (outside of nyc)are in fact NY State Carry permits, Around here they are issued by the county police, in other area's it can be the local judge or Sheriff etc etc. Suffolk started the issuance of the sportsman permit crap, after they went plastic, by removing the Carry title from the face of the permit, thus eliminating having to physically ad restrictions at the counter. Later on down the road, Suffolk got Nassau to follow along to "help eliminate confusion" between the two adjoining counties, and Nassau then followed suit. No wording in the state law has changed concerning the issuance of STATE pistol licenses(afain), it's just local BS. The transformation to plastic without the word "carry" on it also eliminated the need for the person at the counter to make sure your restrictions were stamped on the back before you walked out. Don't think for a moment, that there weren't a number of "accidental" oversights, where that stamp was forgotten. It did happen.
      Thank you for this history. It helps a lot. I think I can end my goose chase for clarity that we are not being afforded. Much appreciated!

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        #18
        Wiki say:

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_New_York
        License required for concealed carry N/A Yes
        S 400.00 New York counties, and some police departments, issue pistol licenses on a "may issue" basis. Discretionary issuance policies vary widely across the state. Generally, it is harder to obtain a license in counties closer to large New York cities. Most counties that aren't a part of downstate New York have shall/reasonable issuance policies, but may administratively restrict time or place of carry (such as only for target shooting or hunting). It is not a crime to carry a weapon under a Target or Hunting permit for other purposes, but if caught or reported the permit will likely be revoked. Concealed carry without any kind of permit must be charged as a felony unless the weapon is unloaded and no ammunition for it is in possession of the person carrying. All permits are valid throughout the state, except in the City of New York, unless validated by the police commissioner of that city, or by armored car guards, retired police officers and retired federal law enforcement officers as specified in the Criminal Procedure Law. NY Penal Law 400 (6). While New York law does not allow issuance of pistol licenses to non-residents, 2013 federal appeals court and State appeals court rulings clarified the residency requirement. This clarification allowed those domiciled outside of the state with a part-time residence in New York to be issued a permit at the discretion of the licensing officer.[4]

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          #19
          Originally posted by RVA View Post
          Also, I do not believe they can conflict, but they can add additional restrictions, within constitutional limits. The NC Handbook begins by saying:
          This isn't the jokes section, is it?

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            #20
            Not authoritative but consistent with what’s been posted. I am not familiar with the specific court cases so cannot cite them here.


            http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/newyork.pdf
            Q - What section of the Penal Law authorizes the placing of restrictions on pistol permits by the issuing authority?
            The Penal Law does not specifically authorize the placing of restrictions on pistol permits. However, court decisions have consistently supported the ability of licensing officials to impose these restrictions. Such an imposition is an administrative function of the licensing officer.
            Licensees in violation of these restrictions would therefore not be subject to criminal prosecution but would face action being taken by the court of issuance in the form of suspension or possible revocation of the license.

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              #21
              Technically, NYSP “issues” the pistol license, but for lack of better terms, NCPD is the “ward” of it, being that it was applied for and given to you through NCPD. The NYSP allows issuing LE agencies to place certain restrictions. Being that a Nassau and Suffolk resident is allowed to carry one pistol and/or revolver loaded and concealed, a NC or SC pistol permit is a concealed carry......with restrictions imposed by the NC/SCPD. In NYC, NYPD is the sole issuing agency of pistol and rifle licenses.

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                #22
                Originally posted by FDEMTNYC View Post
                Technically, NYSP “issues” the pistol license, but for lack of better terms, NCPD is the “ward” of it, being that it was applied for and given to you through NCPD. The NYSP allows issuing LE agencies to place certain restrictions. Being that a Nassau and Suffolk resident is allowed to carry one pistol and/or revolver loaded and concealed, a NC or SC pistol permit is a concealed carry......with restrictions imposed by the NC/SCPD. In NYC, NYPD is the sole issuing agency of pistol and rifle licenses.
                Which creates more anomalies, since Target / Hunting permit holders were given a concealed carry by NC without showing "proper cause". Here is a passage I lifted from elsewhere

                Penal Law Section 400.00.2(f) sets forth a type of pistol license that allows a licensee to "have and carry concealed, without regard to employment or place of possession, by any person when proper cause exists for the issuance thereof." ."Proper cause" has been held to mean that the license applicant must demonstrate "a special need for self-protection distinguishable from that of the general community or of persons engaged in the same profession," Matter of Klenosky v. New York City Police Dept. 75 AD2d 793 as cited in Matter of Bando v, Sullivan 290 AD 2d 691 at 693 (2002), Also see Matter of Kaplan v. Bratton 249 AD 2d 199 (1998), .

                In Matter of Kaplan the Court cited police department regulations that set forth the requirements of establishing "proper cause." The Kaplan court at page 201 held the license· applicant was required to show "extraordinary personal danger documented by proof of recurrent threats to life or safety," The fact that a license applicant may live or work in a.high crime area· does not establish "proper cause" for a full carry concealed permit.

                A general fear for safety without any documented instances of threats,attacks or extraordinary danger will not establish "proper cause", In the Matter of Klenosky, supra, "proper cause" was cited as "such an unusual circumstance as to warrant issuance of a permit to carry a concealed pistol." Id at 793-794,

                THE BURDEN IS ON THE APPLICANT TO ESTABLISH "PROPER CAUSE" FOR THE ISSUANCE OF A "FULL CARRY" PERMIT UNDER PENAL LAW SECTION 400.00.2(1). See Matter of Eddy v. Kirk 195 AD 2d 1009 at 1011 (1993).

                The power of County Court to issue pistol licenses has been held by higher Courts not only to be the power to determine "proper cause" but also includes the power to restrict the use of a Iicense to the purposes that justified its issuance, See Matter of O'Brien v, Keegan 87 NY 2d 436 at 439 citing Matter of O'Connor v, Scamino 83 NY 2d 919, 921..'

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by RVA View Post

                  Which creates more anomalies, since Target / Hunting permit holders were given a concealed carry by NC without showing "proper cause". Here is a passage I lifted from elsewhere

                  Penal Law Section 400.00.2(f) sets forth a type of pistol license that allows a licensee to "have and carry concealed, without regard to employment or place of possession, by any person when proper cause exists for the issuance thereof." ."Proper cause" has been held to mean that the license applicant must demonstrate "a special need for self-protection distinguishable from that of the general community or of persons engaged in the same profession," Matter of Klenosky v. New York City Police Dept. 75 AD2d 793 as cited in Matter of Bando v, Sullivan 290 AD 2d 691 at 693 (2002), Also see Matter of Kaplan v. Bratton 249 AD 2d 199 (1998), .

                  In Matter of Kaplan the Court cited police department regulations that set forth the requirements of establishing "proper cause." The Kaplan court at page 201 held the license· applicant was required to show "extraordinary personal danger documented by proof of recurrent threats to life or safety," The fact that a license applicant may live or work in a.high crime area· does not establish "proper cause" for a full carry concealed permit.

                  A general fear for safety without any documented instances of threats,attacks or extraordinary danger will not establish "proper cause", In the Matter of Klenosky, supra, "proper cause" was cited as "such an unusual circumstance as to warrant issuance of a permit to carry a concealed pistol." Id at 793-794,

                  THE BURDEN IS ON THE APPLICANT TO ESTABLISH "PROPER CAUSE" FOR THE ISSUANCE OF A "FULL CARRY" PERMIT UNDER PENAL LAW SECTION 400.00.2(1). See Matter of Eddy v. Kirk 195 AD 2d 1009 at 1011 (1993).

                  The power of County Court to issue pistol licenses has been held by higher Courts not only to be the power to determine "proper cause" but also includes the power to restrict the use of a Iicense to the purposes that justified its issuance, See Matter of O'Brien v, Keegan 87 NY 2d 436 at 439 citing Matter of O'Connor v, Scamino 83 NY 2d 919, 921..'
                  Basically, NYS issues 2 type of pistol licenses, carry (civilian, retired Fed/LEO, ADA, Judge) and business/work related (like an armed guard) . NC/SCPD puts the home to range/range to home restriction on it. A lot of locations upstate are full carry permits, and people up there have never heard of “Target/Hunting” pistol licenses. Would it be nice to have the liberty of a full carry, damn right, but at least we have a little liberty to carry to and from the range.

                  Comment


                    #24
                    As far as I can tell, NC potentially leaves us in a a bad spot, however unlikely it is that we will find ourselves there. We have no way of showing that we were given a full carry with restrictions so as to enable us to carry to/from range if called upon to do so. If a LEO or judge said:

                    "Show me where it says carry."

                    "Show me the application you made and how you established YOUR BURDEN of showing 'proper cause' to carry. All I see is a target application."

                    the only response we would have is that the Nassau Handbook says it is OK. That would probably be enough to promote leniency, or even a pass. However, the fact remains that the Handbook is not law, as is so often pointed out.
                    Last edited by RVA; 12-28-2019, 01:26 PM.

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                      #25
                      Part of "your burden" is to protect that handgun in as much as you have it to protect you, and how do you do that? You protect it(from being stolen or physically robbed from you), by carrying it loaded AND concealed, that's how. It doesn't matter if it's the only one you're traveling with or not, but even more important if you are traveling with your "arsenal"(media term for owning two or more guns).

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