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Rare WW2 M1 Carbine collection - updated, pics

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    Rare WW2 M1 Carbine collection - updated, pics


    In continuation of posting some WW2 original "type 1" carbines from my collection, I've decided to post them in one merged thread, much like the Trench Gun Collection thread.
    It will be easier to update new picture retakes this way, and not spam the milsurp section, as I understand individual carbine threads would likely get lost in the mix, and are better left for the CMP or Carbine Club forums.


    In years of collecting, I stumbled across USGI carbines, by acquiring one from a pawn shop that turned out to be a rare variation,. I was already referencing Bruce Campbell's book on Trench Guns (the bible for that) and was blown away by the amount of academic info on collecting USGI carbines (Canfield also has a Garand/Carbine book) particularly in Larry Ruth's (the godfather of M1 carbine collecting) 500 page "War Baby" (which has 2 other volumes as well!)

    It reminded me of the intricacies of the many other things I've collected over the years and still do (Comic books, sports cards, vintage projectors, typewriters, coins, etc.) and the history of many American companies like GM and IBM making guns and the war effort behind it was also fascinating.

    Also, the world of USGI carbines consists of 11 prime contractors, with a few main rare variations, so it's very attainable to achieve a "complete" collection more-or-less and I found that attractive. I began specializing in rarer carbines, and will share some of the collectible aspects and the history behind them that made them that way.


    Untitled-2.jpg

    carbines_.jpg

    Winchester Early Spring Tube Type 1, NPM Line-out from IBM/AO, rare Irwin-Pedersen type 1
    Untitled-3.jpg

    Sagainaw S'G', FIist month 4-digit Inland GM, Rock-Ola very early Type1

    2nd.jpg

    Mid War IBM
    Untitled-4.jpg

    Saginaw S'G' ("prime") Irwin Pedersen Serial #
    SGprime.jpg

    wall1.jpg

    wall2.jpg

    Winchester Self Loading Rifle (2nd below) which was the genesis of the M1 Carbine (Canfield) and an early Winchester M1 Carbine below it.

    winchesters_SL.jpg



    #2
    Already posted, but for reference in this thread....

    1943 Rock-Ola M1 Carbine .https://www.longislandgunclub.com/fo...usgi-mint-pics

    Original Type 1, I-cut stock, early Dogear trigger. Minty.

    Rock_ola_43_5.jpg

    Rock-olas are highly sought after. They only produced 228,500 total --about 3.7 percent of all carbines made (compared to Inland's 2.4 million).
    They were a Chicago based high quality jukebox company (hence the beautiful woodwork) with ties to the mob.

    Rock-olas have been always highly sought after and recent auctions reinforce that as early original examples are dwindling (see recent one below of a similar type one in lesser condition without the more sought after I-cut stock)...

    Screenshot_2020-09-14 World War II U S Rock-Ola M1 Semi-Automatic Carbine.png


    1944 National Postal Meter "Line-Out"

    The receiver was originally an IBM Auto-Ordinance sub contract and was lent to NPM as production was being pumped out. They lined it out and assembled an NPM off of it. Estimated 50K of these existed.


    https://www.longislandgunclub.com/fo...eter-1944-pics

    image_66370.jpg

    image_66371.jpg

    Comment


      #3
      WOW... that is an awesome collection!
      Life Member: ASA, GOA, NRA

      Comment


        #4
        Enough is enough. It’s like Brad Pitt asking his newest hot wife to hold his Oscar while he whips out his Ron Jeremy-esqjust Johnson, threw it on the table and said, “look what I got!”

        Seriously though, that’s a beautiful collection of carbines, especially that Rock-Ola. As I said before, The M1C Is my favorite gun, even the replicas, and those are some damn sweet beauties.
        "The devil doesn't come dressed in a red cape and pointy horns. He comes as everything you've ever wished for.”
        Tucker Max

        Infirmitate Invitat Violentiam
        Finicky Fat Guy

        Comment


          #5
          Wow, truly amazing.

          Comment


            #6
            Sometimes I hate you.
            Giza Development: Building and Renovating Pyramids of Distinction Since 2435 BC 631-427-1691 (Beware the Sea People)

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              #7
              Originally posted by Finicky Fat Guy View Post
              Enough is enough. It’s like Brad Pitt asking his newest hot wife to hold his Oscar while he whips out his Ron Jeremy-esqjust Johnson, threw it on the table and said, “look what I got!”

              Seriously though, that’s a beautiful collection of carbines, especially that Rock-Ola. As I said before, The M1C Is my favorite gun, even the replicas, and those are some damn sweet beauties.
              been posting on the li gun forums for 13 years and it’s all worth it for that quote alone lol

              irwin pedersen pics coming up next.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Destro View Post

                been posting on the li gun forums for 13 years and it’s all worth it for that quote alone lol

                irwin pedersen pics coming up next.
                Glad I could make your day.
                "The devil doesn't come dressed in a red cape and pointy horns. He comes as everything you've ever wished for.”
                Tucker Max

                Infirmitate Invitat Violentiam
                Finicky Fat Guy

                Comment


                  #9
                  Good stuff Destro, I have a bunch of them, need to get everything in some form of organization so I can do some pics (BTW-yours are well done). Don't have the fancy setup you do, so I'll have to improvise
                  Take a young person shooting.... Take 2 or more if you can...

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Finicky Fat Guy View Post
                    Glad I could make your day.
                    Yeah, that WAS a great one!
                    Take a young person shooting.... Take 2 or more if you can...

                    Comment


                      #11
                      NICE Carbines/collection.

                      I have a few Carbines I picked up over the years, but I don't really collect them or have done much research on them. Recently, one of my friends saw one of mine and told me that I have a rarer Underwood with a Singer receiver, all correct. Nothing really super special, but not run-of-the-mill either.
                      "The Open Carry guy is my decoy."

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Collecting USGI M1 Carbines: The Numbers, and the Types of Carbines.

                        As with any collectible rarity brings collectiblity. In the case of War-issued carbines, the rarity in production is part of the history, the wartime production effort, and the circumstances surrounding that. (Unlike an artificially-issued limited edition run of some modern collectible; coin, comic, sports card, whatever).


                        The Numbers, and the contractors.

                        USGI WW2 Carbines were made by 11 prime contractors which had government contracts to fulfill a certain number of carbines. Each contractor was assigned a "block of serial numbers".

                        So there are far less of certain "makes' than others (and far less in original condition, as the government re-arsenaled most carbines to the newer type 3 version you saw in Korea etc.) For example Inland made 2.4 million, Saginaw S'G' (Grand Rapids) made only 223,000. There are only about 50,000 Irwin-Pedersen receivers that were put in circulation.

                        Carbine chart.jpg
                        Then you get some variants. We know from Ordnance Dept. records that Inland supplied less than 3,000 receivers to Rock-ola. These became Rock-ola "line outs" of Inland (bearing both makers names on the heel stamp) and since only 2,000 exist are rare and collectible. You get the picture.

                        The unicorn of all collectible USGI M1 Carbines are Commercial Controls. Only 0-239 were produced before the contract was over. I would gladly pay for one what I paid for my new truck.

                        National Postal Meter Company changed the name of their company to Commercial Controls Corporation on April 26, 1944. The same month they ceased carbine production. The 239 Commercial Controls M1 Carbines were assembled from leftover parts and provided to U.S. Army Ordnance in August 1945.


                        The Real Numbers - What remains, and in what configuration?

                        But that's the WW2 issued numbers. How many survived. How many exist in what condition. And the big question for collecting is how many are still in original as-issued in WW2 configuration (type 1). as most carbines were re-arsenaled post war by an Ordnance directive to have all of them fitted with the new bayonet band, and other later features (safety, sights, etc.)

                        serials.jpg


                        The Three Main Configutations of USGI M1 Carbines (Types in collector nomenclature).


                        Top to Bottom: "Type 1", "Type 2", "Type 3"

                        M1-Carbine_002.jpg

                        The standard M1 Carbine went through a constant evolution throughout its production life. Early models (top) had high wood stocks, narrow barrel bands, flip sights and no bayonet lugs. All early handguards had only 2 rivets (later changed to 4). Transition pieces (mid to late WW2) still maintained some early characteristics, but included such things as ramp-style rear sights and low wood stocks (center). Late M1 Carbines had bayonet lugs, round bolts, ramps-style sights and other updates (bottom).



                        type_comp.jpg
                        Two WW2 USGI carbines in original states. IBM came in later to the production game and had more mid-war or type 2 features including the adjustable sights, a rounded bolt, and a flip-type safety. Whereas the early true "type 1s" have flip sights, flat bolts, and a push button safety.


                        Post War "Type 3" Carbines, the bayonet lug M1 Carbine most see and know.


                        So many of the carbines out there are the post-war type 3 style, the Korean War carbines with the visible bayonet lug, a switch safety, round bolts and ramp sights as well as a fatter "pot belly" wood stock (which has marks and proofs from the arsenal that overhauled it i.e. Augusta Arsenal, Rock Island Armory, etc.) .A higher capacity magazine was also issued.
                        korean.jpg

                        These type 3s were sold to Germany, Austria in the 50s (Bavarian Guard), Italy, Africa (recent Ethiopian find) and 100,000s remain stuck in Korea. Many of these were imported by the NRA in the early 1960s and sold to LE agencies for $20 a piece.


                        M1 Carbines were also used in the Vietnam war by ARVN Marines and Rangers, South Vietnamese National Police, as well as their Regional and Popular Forces and the Kit Carson Scouts. Many made it to enemy hands and it was said they were popular among the Viet Cong.

                        Larry Ruth estimated about 1.5 million were left behind.

                        https://www.americanrifleman.org/art...ne-in-vietnam/

                        stockpotbelly.jpg

                        barrel-band-type-3-600x247.jpg
                        "Type 3" barrel band with the prominent bayonet lug was fitted on millions of carbines post WW2, by directive of the Ordinance Dept. None of the original early to mid WW2 M1 Carbines have this.


                        Collectibility of as-issued, Original WW2 early "Type 1" Carbines.

                        This is also why USGI "type 1s" --the original style as issued early and mid WW2 are harder to come by, and even harder to come by in higher grades, and fetch premiums in auctions today as excellent examples are harder to come by. I specialize in these because the allure of an original as-issued WW2 carbine, their collector specialization, and the fact that as a civilian in a ban state I can collect these in the same configuration they would be collectible on a national level.

                        Hopefully the above primer can shed some context on the production volume by contractor, the variants within, and the type that all contribute to the place of Type 1s in carbine collecting, going forward with some of these examples that will be posted in this thread.
                        Last edited by Destro; 11-22-2020, 12:44 AM.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Destro , do you know anything (or have anything in books) about the Underwoods with Singer receivers?

                          Thanks.
                          "The Open Carry guy is my decoy."

                          Comment


                            #14
                            I was watching "Sons of Our Fathers" the other night. I wonder how many gems are laying around the Hollywood armorers warehouses?
                            Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock.

                            Comment


                            • Destro
                              Destro commented
                              Editing a comment
                              One of our members owns some of the guns used in filming Miami Vice. They are operational. I’ve often wondered how many prop guns were real and which ones were non-firing replicas.

                            #15
                            Originally posted by Dan 0351 View Post
                            Destro , do you know anything (or have anything in books) about the Underwoods with Singer receivers?

                            Thanks.
                            Sure,

                            known as the "B" code receiver....

                            singer.jpg

                            Receiver Type B, variation 6
                            Underwood heel stamp with a "B" in a flaming bomb stamp under it. Made by Singer Mfg. Co.
                            Quantity/SN range: 2630xxx-2655xxx.
                            Known barrel dates: 11-43 and 12-43.
                            Proposed qty: 120,000 (may-dec 1943)

                            (L. Ruth, War Baby pg 368)

                            see picture of heel stamp in lower right of page (picture of page attached below):

                            ----------------------

                            So yeah, a nice, relatively rare variation of which only 120K were made! (I especially like the household names so Singer, IBM, GM, etc. always have that factor). I also like that it is noted by the B in a flaming bomb, so there's a nice aesthetic (not just a rare serial number) to show for it. A good example of an M1 Carbine variation (subcontracts from other companies are cool as well IMO)

                            -----------------
                            Here's a recent auction, but it was a re-arsenaled type 3, the value this year will likely be much more in the right auction for a type 1 version and even this price was low (even auction prices from 5 years ago have doubled with some types)..

                            https://www.legacy-collectibles.com/...0receiver.html




                            WarBaby.jpg

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